Today, we’re not going to work on commands. We’re going to discuss what positive reinforcement is and what it isn’t.
Often, positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement get mixed up and interpreted incorrectly. Both styles can and are used with multiple species. Not just dogs, but horses, monkeys, cattle, cats… So, let’s define both terms with dictionary.com.
negative reinforcement
Function: noun
: psychological reinforcement by removal of an unpleasant stimulus when a desired response occurs
What does this mean in practicality? What does it look like?
Well, a good example of negative reinforcement is the parent that yells at their kids to do their chores. Pretty soon, the kids only respond to yelling. The parent starts to yell more and more to get a response out of the kids. The kids are being negatively reinforced because the yelling stops when they respond by doing their chores.
Another example would be the common way horses are trained. Horses are wired differently than kids or dogs for the most part. For a horse, negative reinforcers are stronger than postitive ones. A horse will choose to move away from a negative reinforcer rather than stay for a positive one (ie, treat). Negative reinforcement in horses activates their fear response, which results in a flight response such as moving away from the negative stimulus. Such as, by putting pressure on the lead rope, a horse is negatively reinforced when he takes a step forward and the pressure is removed. The pressure is the reinforcer, the reward is the release of pressure. The pressure is a negative stimulus, the release becomes a negative reinforcement. Often, people see this as a positive reward. But it’s not positive. It’s only removing the negative. The horse didn’t gain anything it wouldn’t have already had if the negative stimulus hadn’t existed. The removal of the negative was a good thing, but not truly a positively rewarding thing. Most horses respond well to this. However, it may not be ideal in all cases, such as Casey. But that’s an idea I’m toying with. :)
Negative reinforcement for a dog might be the choke collar on his neck that tightens when he pulls and then the pressure is released when he quits pulling. He’s negatively reinforced by the removal of the choking sensation when he quits pulling. Again, the issue with using negative reinforcement as a primary tool is that it can escalate to where you need even more and more negative stimulus to get the behavior you’re looking for. In the case of choke collars, real physical damage can happen in untrained hands. A better use of negative reinforcement with dogs would be using your body to block and back up a dog out of an area you don’t want them in, say like a kitchen. The reward for backing up and staying out of the kitchen is the removal of your physical presence. You’re no longer sending the message to “get out of my space”.
Negative reinforcement isn’t necessarily a bad thing. It has it’s uses. However, I don’t believe it should be the only training method you use or the only tool in your tool box.
Are you following me so far?
Conversely, the definition of positive reinforcement is:
| positive reinforcement | |
| Part of Speech: | n |
| Definition: | the offering of desirable effects or consequences for a behavior with the intention of increasing the chance of that behavior being repeated in the future |
What does positive reinforcement look like?
Positive reinforcement is much more reward based. You receive something you didn’t have before and wouldn’t already exist without the “trainer”. An example would be the kid who does his chores and gets allowance, the kids who do their chores and receive praise for a job well done. This isn’t just ending the yelling to negatively reinforce the kids, they’re getting something they didn’t have before the parent said “do your chores”. They didn’t have allowance money before, or maybe not as much as before if they had an amount squirreled away. They didn’t have the praise before. These are things they gained through positive reinforcement. Some children (depending on age) will begin to seek out additional chores (or a job) to earn additional money. This is the reward. Do something expected, gain something they didn’t have before. It becomes rewarding.
Carrot stretches would be an example of positive reinforcement with horses. The horse stretches and it gets the carrot as it’s reward. Positive reinforcement turns on a different pattern in the horse’s behavior. The horse begins to actively seek reward. Imagine how this could change the lives of halter horses everywhere. Instead of being negatively reinforced to prick their ears with the handler cracking a whip (activated fear system, leaving them ready for flight- a negative stimulus), imagine that halter horses are clicker trained to prick their ears and gain the reward of a carrot! How could this change the person-horse relationship dynamic? (For me, just think of how this might change my relationship with Casey! He could learn that people mean good things!)
If you’ve been following my blog for any length of time, you’ve probably already seen how positive reinforcement shapes the behaviors of dogs and how it speeds the learning/training process. We’ve learned to lure our dogs into a sit position, click as marker for the behavior that pairs with the word “sit”, and be rewarded for giving the desired result. Because we’ve rewarded the desired behavior, the dog will seek out ways to earn the reward.
As a side note, I should mention that praise is a secondary reinforcer. It increases the effectiveness of either reinforcer when paired with it. However, positive reinforcement is greatly heightened by praise.
So, in what situations have you been perhaps using negative reinforcement and maybe could replace it with positive reinforcement to gain better results? In what situations do you know of where positive reinforcement could make your relationship better? Any questions?
[...] Original post by oregonsunshine [...]
“For a horse, negative reinforcers are stronger than postitive ones.”
I’ll have to disagree with you on this one, as I’m really not sure that this is an accurate statement.
A strong negative reinforcer is going to be highly reinforcing and elicit a fast response. The animal will learn quickly what to do.
Same with a positive reinforcer. A high value positive reinforcer will also lead to quick learning and an increase in the rate of the behavior.
As far as maintaining behavior and increasing the rate of behavior, I’d say that for horses, positive reinforcers work much better than negative reinforcers. My horses not only learn faster and remember better with +R, but are more willing to offer behaviors and show off what they know.
Also, the horses at the barn that I train using +R meet me at the fence and pace the fence until I go get them. The horses I haven’t worked with or horses I’ve used -R with, I have to walk across the pasture and actually catch those.
cheers,
Mary H.
http://stalecheerios.com/blog
“For a horse, negative reinforcers are stronger than postitive ones.”
I’ll have to disagree with you on this one, as I’m really not sure that this is an accurate statement.
A strong negative reinforcer is going to be highly reinforcing and elicit a fast response. The animal will learn quickly what to do.
Same with a positive reinforcer. A high value positive reinforcer will also lead to quick learning and an increase in the rate of the behavior.
As far as maintaining behavior and increasing the rate of behavior, I’d say that for horses, positive reinforcers work much better than negative reinforcers. My horses not only learn faster and remember better with +R, but are more willing to offer behaviors and show off what they know.
Also, the horses at the barn that I train using +R meet me at the fence and pace the fence until I go get them. The horses I haven’t worked with or horses I’ve used -R with, I have to walk across the pasture and actually catch those.
cheers,
Mary H.
Getting a horse to move in a round pen is using negative reinforcers. You’re using pressure to get them to move and the release of pressure is the negative reinforcer. Often people think that the removal of pressure is a positive reinforcer, but by the very definition, this is a negative reinforcer. The pressure-release system is how most horses are trained, and it works. It has worked so well that this is how horses have been trained for years. Even if you’re using c/t with a horse in a round pen, you are still using a pressure-release system to get them to move. The c/t at that point becomes the secondary reinforcer.
“The pressure-release system is how most horses are trained, and it works. It has worked so well that this is how horses have been trained for years. ”
Yes, but just because something works does not mean that there’s a better way to do it. For most of history, horse training has been about obedience and control. Pressure-release and negative reinforcement is a great way to get obedience and control. The horse works because he knows he better, or else.
“Often people think that the removal of pressure is a positive reinforcer, but by the very definition, this is a negative reinforcer”
I definitely agree! Pressure-release is a perfect example of negative reinforcement in action.
“Getting a horse to move in a round pen is using negative reinforcers. You’re using pressure to get them to move and the release of pressure is the negative reinforcer.”
Not if you don’t use pressure to get them to move.
For instance, you can combine target training and a bit of free shaping to teach the horse to move around you in a circle.
Once the horse starts to “get” the behavior, you can add a cue, such as pointing in the direction you want the horse to go and a verbal command to ask for movement. Then, the target can gradually be faded, and used only when the horse gets his feet a little stuck.
“The c/t at that point becomes the secondary reinforcer.”
The click is always a secondary reinforcer (as long as it is conditioned as such). The treat is always a primary reinforcer. If I use both negative reinforcement and C/T with a horse to get him to move forward, I end up with 1 secondary reinforcer (the click) and 2 primary reinforcers (removal of pressure and the food).
cheers,
Mary
Ugh! Apparently, you’ve only selectively read my blog. At no time do I call myself a horse trainer. More, Training Thursdays is about DOG training. I AM a dog trainer. Using horses as an example was more for the benefit of my equine readers. Especially because most people don’t fully understand negative and positive reinforcement.
I am not finding your comments helpful or beneficial at this time.
I am not finding your comments helpful or beneficial at this time.
What a touchy little fellow!
I think Mary H – was thinking you were trying to make a case for “negative reinforcement” which is not what I got from the post. But I would have practice those methods and see for myself that they really are more effective and beneficial to the horse – I would also have to see how those methods could replace the training methods for everything we teach horses to do. It seems to me that if you did one half with positive reinforcement and one half with negative reinforcement that it wouldn’t work so well. So I guess what I am saying is that I would need to see a horse trained up to a World Champion level out there actively winning using only those methods for me “buy into it.” In theory it sounds wonderful.
Also I am pretty in tune with my horse – I have spent a lifetime studying horse’s body language. I can see when my horse is happy, content, sad, worried, stressed, jealous, or mad. I haven’t seen him negatively impacted by the years of training me and my trainer have put into him. He is not a freaked out spaz cause we’ve tinkered with his flight/fight response (I know you were not implying that – am using as an example only). He is well a adjusted kind horse who’s general mood can be described as content and happy. He gets along with other horses and is rarely stressed or worried and doesn’t have an over active or under active fear response as a result of his training. So I guess what I am saying is well….I really don’t know….. other than I am usually driven to seek out a new method of training if I am unhappy with my currently methods of training – the way it works or doesn’t – the results (of lack there of) – or the way it effects my horse.
When I am currently using a method that is producing a healthy, happy, well-behaved horse that can win in the show ring – I am happy with it.
Thanks Steph! What I was trying to do was illustrate the differences between positive and negative reinforcement and how we use each. It can be easy to get the terminology confused as a lot of people tend to think that negative reinforcement is punishment, when it isn’t. And they then mistake the removal of pressure as positive reinforcement. When in reality, the horse (or dog or goat or whatever) has not GAINED anything they wouldn’t have already had if they’d been left alone. I just wanted to get that part straightened out. Not start a huge discussion here about styles of horse training.
I apologize. I fear I’ve probably misunderstood some of the things you’ve said and that I’ve been unclear with some of the points I was trying to make. I also realize I’ve been critical without knowing the whole story, I hope I haven’t already worn out my welcome.
I think you were just trying to illustrate the differences between positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement, something I wish that more horse people knew! Knowing the science behind what we do can only help us become better trainers.
Negative reinforcement has been used for years with great success for training horses. I find that many horse people think release of pressure is a positive reinforcer. Many who do not understand the difference between neg. and positive reinforcement don’t understand how they would add positive reinforcers into their training.
Some horses are happy and content with negative reinforcement training only, but some can really benefit from the addition of positive reinforcement as a bit of added motivation. I invite you to check out my blog— I use almost entirely positive reinforcement for training a herd of rescue horses, my dog and my goldfish.
I look forward to reading more of your blog and finding out more of Casey’s story.
cheers,
Mary H.
Thank you, Mary. You’ve paraphrased what I was saying and added more to what I was hinting at. I only hinted at what could be with more positive reinforcement for horses and tried to ask leading questions to get people to start dialog and start connecting some dots. I don’t push my beliefs of anything onto anyone. I try to keep the discussions here light and friendly. This definitely isn’t the place to get into heavy and heated discussions about theories. I’m sure there are other places for that.
As for your blog. I did visit. I visited last night shortly after you left your first couple of comments. I’m glad Karen Pryor has influenced your life. She’s been on my bookshelf for more than a decade.
You are welcome to stay. I just request that we all stay respectful of each other.
Why do I always miss out on the good stuff??? LOL!!! Seriously though, you did a great job at explaining both types of reinforcement (and I should know as I have had several psych and social work classes that sing its praises!).
Cool about St. Martin’s!!! I am considering their masters in counsleing psych program. I wouldn’ start it until the fall of 2011, so I still have some time.
I am thinking that the next time I go to Cabelas, I need to call you first, so I can get the name of that coffee to try again. Starbucks is rather burnt tasting, but it works when I am in a pinch. :0
Shoot me an email… that way I can give you my phone number!
Hi, interesting post. I have been thinking about this issue,so thanks for writing. I will certainly be subscribing to your blog.
Good blog! One thing though for clarity:
“Carrot stretches would be an example of positive reinforcement with horses.”
Technically, this is luring (bribery). In positive reinforcement training, the reward is produced at the time the desired behaviour is achieved (neck stretched round to desired point), not beforehand to encourage the behaviour. In clicker training the desired behaviour is marked with a click (bridge) and then the reward is given. Using +R training, the neck stretch would be shaped in increments, starting from a turn of the head to the full stretch.
Best wishes,
JL
Hey! Thanks for stopping by and explaining things a little better than I did. I appreciate it!
Now you know why I say, “Well, that way worked,” or, “Yup, looks like this way isn’t working.”